Response to article Baptist Bend.

Hi Sandy,

  Just a couple of thoughts below...

 

We see constant calls throughout scripture that back up this basic principle from Jesus saying "Abide in me, and I in you" and "IF anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." to Paul stating "Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain" and "...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...".

We are again reminded to continue in faith from the author of Hebrews telling us "For we have become partakers of Christ IF we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." and "Take Heed, Brethren, Lest There Be In Any Of You An Evil Heart Of Unbelief, In Depating From The Living God."

John tells us "And now, little children, ABIDE in Him, that when He appears, we may have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His coming" and Peter confirms this with "Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to CONFIRM YOUR CALL AND ELECTION, for if you do this you will never fall; so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

I can only ask, "Is there any reason for these calls to persevere and remain in Christ if it is an impossibility NOT to?" It takes a good deal of imagination to accept that one CAN'T fall away and forfeit salvation through disbelief.

What is the Securist's logic in answer to this?

 

 

Response from reader: Is Jesus talking about salvation in John or how to be fruitful?

Answer: Are you talking about this part where Jesus said, "Abide in me, and I in you" and "IF anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."

 To me that is clear what Jesus is talking about. We must continually abide in Him or else. Of course this is not going to be by force, but out of our love and obedience to Him. 1 John 2:28,29 says, "And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."

 Remember what Paul said, Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain" and "...to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight -- IF indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel...".

Our salvation is sure by our continual faith in Jesus and our faith is evident by good works, living a holy life. As the article said, works not for merit, but works done as a result of faith. (Eph. 2:8,9)

 Response from reader: Hebrews is most likely a tribulational book, during which it's faith + works like the old testament was.

 Answer: People say this is a tribulational book. It's clear that the Book of Hebrews is written to people who are Christians after the resurrection of Jesus. This is clear by the fact that they are called:

It is also known that they:

The fact is, these Hebrews believers:

Since all this is true, how do they differ from us who have trusted in Christ for our salvation? How do they differ from us since we also have been enlightened, have tasted the heavenly gift, have been made partakes of the Holy Spirit, have tasted the good word of God, and in the church? Doesn't the Bible say that there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus? Even though these were Hebrews, nonetheless, they were in Christ. The warning was just as valid for them as it is for us or any Jew today.

Another thing I don't understand. If this book was addressed to Christians back then (who happened to be Hebrews), are you saying that they should have had works + faith for salvation at the time it was written? If it wasn't for the Jews back then, then how does one conclude it's for Jews in the future? How is that line drawn? Does the cross of Christ end when the tribulation begins? What kind of works are expected of those in the tribulation? If you say keeping the commandments, what commandments? Are they going back under the Levitical law?

There are plenty of times where we are told how we know Jesus, if we keep his commandments. (1 John 2:3) This is clear from the book of 1 John and the 2 book of John. We are to abide in the teachings of Jesus. Whatever He taught applies to us as well. Paul preached Jesus. "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." (2Jo 1:9)

 Response from reader: The main thing to realize is that once you are in Christ you are a part of Him. You are no longer of your father the devil.

Answer: I would have to say that this has nothing to do with unconditional eternal security.Jesus said, "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: -Mark 9:43-47

We are a member of Christ's body in a figurative sense only, which could never be affected if one of its members falls away (Heb. 6:6), becomes an enemy of God (James 4:4), or turns away and follow Satan (1 Tim. 5:11-13), etc., etc.. Also, we are Christ's body (1 Cor. 12:27) only in the sense that Paul meant it to be understood, that is, in that each member of the body needs the other members and has a specific, unique purpose. To use it in some other sense it to take this figure of speech out of its context.

 If you read the letter to the churches in Revelation, Jesus warned us about lukewarm Christians. He will vomit them out of his mouth if they did not repent. (Rev. 3:16)

Paul talking to Christians in Romans said, "Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee."

The Bible is clear that there will be some saved people who will depart from the faith (departing from the faith doesn't happen to lost people!), "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1). We see in Scripture where the widows turned from Christ and started following Satan (1 Tim. 5:11-15). Also look at Demas. He was a traveling companion of Paul (Col. 4:14; Phm. 1:24). They worked together and endured various troubles and persecutions preaching the kingdom of God. But what happened to Demas? Paul said, "For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia" (2 Tim. 4:10). Damas, a saved man, fell away and went back to loving this present world. We all know what that means. He loved the world more than God. The god of this world is Satan! (2 Cor. 4:4). Damas got deceived, and it affected his behaviour. In his unrepentant state, he lost his salvation, he did not endure! "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him" (1 John 2:15) "Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God" (James 4:4).

So often when a person becomes a believer and then goes back to his sinful lifestyle we will hear, "They were never saved to begin with." I'm waiting for someone to show me one verse in Scripture where it speaks of those who have come to "believe" and when they fell away, they are simply said to have not been saved to begin with.

Response from reader: Christ remains faithful even if you can't.

Answer: "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers." -2 Tim. 2:11-14

The way popular teachers of our day interpret verse 13 is very disturbing and violates the immediate context. Furthermore, it goes against the whole body of Scripture regarding God's faithfulness to carry out his threats! It is clear that Paul had Jesus' teachings (doctrine) in mind when he penned those verses.

And here in verse 12 Paul dogmatically asserts:

But we have popular teachers who incredibly negate this truth.

Chuck Swindoll says,
"If you have trusted the Lord Jesus Christ as your Savior, you are still a child of God. You may deny Him, but He will never deny you. Though you are faithless, He will remain faithful. And the grace of God, the seal of the Holy Spirit, preserves you permanently. This is called the doctrine of eternal security."

It is plain to see that Chuck Swindoll says the exact opposite of our Lord Jesus and Paul (Mt. 10:33; Luke 9:12; 2 Tim. 2:12). They make this related to the doctrine of unconditional eternal security, which gives an unscriptural view of God's faithfulness.

 Read the following dangerous distortions of what Christ and Paul said by these teachers.

Charles Stanley:
"....believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation, for God remains faithful.

Charles Ryrie writes:
"....a believer may come to the place of not believing, and yet god will not disown him, since He cannot deny Himself.

 Zane Hodges writes
"And even if we stop believing all this, He remains faithful! For Him to renege on such promises would be nothing less than a denial of His own character and fidelity. But, as the apostle points out, He cannot deny Himself."

 Robert Thieme, Jr. teaches:
"Eternal security depends on the faithfulness of God."

 Robert Lightner refers to 2 Tim. 2:13:
 "The Holy Spirit brought conviction of sin and regeneration to the sinner. He has become the seal of our eternal salvation (Eph. 4:30). We have been received into the family of God. The only ones who cold possible break the seal would be the members of the Godhead. And they have given us their word they will never do this (2 Tim.2:13)."

 Though there are many others, here is one from Charles Spurgeon:
"The faithfulness of God is the foundation and cornerstone of our hope of final perseverance."

 This is the interpretation of the OSAS doctrine. They teach the exact opposite of what Christ and Paul taught. By the very words of Jesus and Paul, it is very obvious that one cannot remain saved and "disown" Christ, and therefore we should not be surprised that OSAS teachers would employ such an interpretation. The reason is that they do not want to give up this beloved doctrine even though it is thoroughly unscriptural. It doesn't matter what the Scriptures teach, all that matters is what the majority teaches.

 Whether this is done intentionally or unintentionally, the inference remains the same of interpreting 2 Tim. 2:13 in such a manner as these teachers have done. It simply makes Jesus to be a liar by saying he won't disown us if we become unfaithful to the point of disowning him.

Only those who have been previously saved could become disowned by Christ according to the context of Matt. 10:33.

 Indeed God is faithful at all times who will carry out his many precious promises, but he will also be faithful in carry out his most solemn warnings and threats. God is a faithful God. He will remain faithful to both (promises and warnings) for he cannot disown himself.

We don't have to worry about God's faithfulness, we should be concerned about our own! (Col. 1:21-23;1 Cor. 15:1-2; 1 Cor. 10:12; Acts 14:21-22; Romans 11:18-2; Php 2:12)

Eternal life is much more than just a gift and present tense possession. It is also a hope (Titus 3:) and promise (1 John 2:24,25), yet to be reaped (Gal. 6:8,), in the age to come (Mk. 10:30), but only for those who persist in doing good (Rom. 2:7) and who don't grow weary and give up sowing to please the Spirit of God and not the flesh (Gal. 6:8,)

Response from reader: You can't keep switching families between the devil and God.

Answer: God is merciful and calls all men to repentance. It's already seen that it's possible to be a believer and depart from the faith. It's possible to have been a believer and turn from Christ and follow Satan. And remember Damas? These peoples' faith did not endure. Read 2 Peter 2:19-22. But woe should they die in an unrepentant state.

There are some people who will say one cannot be "unborn." This type of argument is based on natural fact, then applied to the spiritual. It is a mistake to argue from the natural to the spiritual just to defend the OSAS doctrine. It is clear from the Bible that before we ever came to trust in Christ we were known as "children of the devil" (Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:10) and "sons of the evil one" (Mt. 13:38). This means that the devil was our spiritual father (John 8:44). However, this relationship changed at the point of salvation according to Scripture. To get back to having the devil as our spiritual father does not mean one would have to be "unborn," he simply ceases to abide in Christ and walk after the flesh and loving this present world. He switches fathers as Damas did!

Nowhere does the Bible speak of anyone being unborn. There's no such language or thought. It's just an invented argument to defend an unbiblical doctrine. Nowhere does one become "unborn," they simply die. One can die physically and spiritually (Luke 15:24,32; Rom. 8:13; James 1:14,15; etc.). It is possible to stop believing (Luke 8:13), have our faith destroyed (2 Tim. 2:18), and for our faith to become shipwrecked (1 Tim. 1:19,20)

 Response from reader: Once God adopts you, you are His.

 Answer: The Bible speaks of the "Spirit of adoption." The word adoption is used five times in the Scriptures. Four of the references clearly refer to glorified bodies (Rom. 8:5, 23; Rom. 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5). Adoption occurs at the point when Christ actually glorifies the human bodies and inducts His children into His visible kingdom. That Spirit that prepares the believer for the adoption is now dwelling within the believer. He is the Spirit of adoption.

Here in the Western culture the word adoption is reserved for that act where one who is not a member of the family is legally taken as a family member. However, in the Jewish culture when one who was already a family member came into inheritance and was instated in the position of authority, receiving all the rights and privileges of the firstborn heir, it was also called adoption. As believers we are already the sons of God, but our actual adoption into the visible blessing of the heir is yet future.

The Spirit of adoption has already established an intimate relationship with the children of God. In anticipation of that final act of salvation, the redemption of the body, the believer now cries out to the Father in such an intimate way, "Abba, Father." Some people call him papa or daddy. The Bible says in 1 John 3:2, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. "

Response from reader: This is not a free license to sin. But that's a whole other topic.

Answer: Nothing against you, Bill (not his real name), but that is a typical saying in defense for the OSAS doctrine. It goes against reality and against Scripture, because that's what this doctrine does and I have witnessed it myself. It indirectly promotes sin. Divorce means nothing, committing suicide means nothing, getting drunk means nothing, etc., because we are all going to heaven anyway. This is sad and it's sending many to hell. It's said the worse that can happen is that we will lose rewards, lose the joy of salvation or God will kill the Christian.

To teach that God would kill a sinful, disobedient son because of his sins and then let him enter heaven is indirectly promoting sin! (Jude 1:4) After all, the disobedient child of God supposedly has nothing to lose, as far as salvation is concerned, by sinning unrepentantly. If anything, he will be rewarded by God taking him to heaven that much quicker!

If the OSAS doctrine is completely true, then a person could actually sin all they want and still be saved.

I have a question for you, Bill. This is very serious and I really want you to think about it. Do you believe a Christian can be drunk and still go to heaven? Do you believe that a Christian who is involved in pornography will still go to heaven? What about a Christian who goes back to his homosexual lifestyle?

 I'm not asking for all the learned answers, because I know you would not want to promote sin. I would just like the bottom line.

Would they still be saved?

 If your answer is yes, then you just went against Scripture (Eph. 5:5-7; Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Cor. 6:10, etc.) The OSAS doctrine supercedes God's word!

 Let me tell you how fatal this false doctrine is. There was a Christian who was getting drunk and seeking out prostitutes. He was brought up with the OSAS doctrine. When asked, "How do you handle God's conviction of sin?" He said, "That's not the Holy Spirit convicting me. That's Satan condemning me. I just rebuke Satan for condemning me and thank God for giving me grace. Just like we believe that Jesus died for our sins by faith, I believe the OSAS doctrine by faith in the same way. I believe in both doctrines of faith. My sins past, present, and future are forgiven and the OSAS doctrine is icing on the top of the cake by confirming it. I can have my cake and eat it too."

 This man got so deceived that he thought the devil was condemning him! He finally came to the light weeks later as someone showed him the OSAS doctrine was false, praise God! He stopped living in sin.

 Let me give you another example. There was a pastor in Houston who taught the OSAS doctrine. He had a teenage daughter who was a little rebellious, which he thought was a normal thing. One weekend he left her in charge of the house and planned to travel to another town for a couple of days with his wife. They had car problems and decided to go back home after the car was fixed. When they arrived home late that night, they found a keg party going on. Every bedroom was filled with teenagers having sex. They found their daughter drunk and naked in bed with a young man. The next day, her parents were hurt and heart sick about what took place, and they asked her about her actions. She said, "What's the big deal, Dad? You said that I'm saved, and that Jesus has forgiven me all my past, present, and future sins, so I'm going to heaven. You have been teaching that for years."

 I have my own sister who is back on crack, living in fornication and gets drunk often. She claims she's still saved and God loves her even though she's not perfect! She got this fatal false gospel from the church where I used to attend and from the counselor who tried to counsel her!!

 Look at Mr. Rowley, a pastor! He divorces his wife for no biblical reason! He contemplated suicide while claiming to have a conversation with God! You know that story. This is the fruit of OSAS.

A friend at church whose daughter talked about committing suicide and in the conversation her mother was shocked at what her daughter said, "Mom, I'll be going to heaven anyway."

 My eyes were not opened to this until it hit home with my sister. This really got me into questioning this doctrine.

I thank you for your time. As you can see, I am quite passionate about this issue. Many souls are going to hell on this doctrine. Sin is not taken seriously. Many passages of Scripture are simply ignored that proves salvation is conditional. The five points of Calvinism are simply doctrines from hell and many are following.

 Don't get me wrong, I believe in eternal security, but eternal security of the believer. And I know that I had better be on guard because I could be one of those who could depart from the faith. Oh, I pray I don't. Jesus says we must endure to the end. We must not deny Him. We are constantly told to continue in the faith, to run the race. I know He can see me through anything and give me grace to bear any circumstances as long as I continue in the faith.

 Peace and blessing to you,
Sandy

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